Tales of the Reluctant Blind | Bottom Line I.T. – Embracing Accessibility in a Digital World with Chris Knapp
Screen grab of Chris and Mike during interview over Zoom.
Back in January I had the great pleasure of sitting down with my good friend Mike Maddox, President & CEO of ASK, to record an installment of his weekly Bottom Line I.T. program for the Michigan Business Network.
Thanks to Mike, and to the Michigan Business Network for helping to facilitate this important conversation about the need for digital accessibility, and providing us with this opportunity to articulate the business case for the types of authentic, immersive accessibility testing services that we are able to offer through Accessiversity.
In this episode of the Bottom-Line IT Show, Mike and I talk about Accessiversity’s mission to use technology to meet the needs of those with disabilities, and how accessibility goes much deeper than a website plugin. It’s also about business processes and considering your user experience.
Give this six-segment episode a listen by visiting the Michigan Business Network website at: https://www.michiganbusinessnetwork.com/blog/bottom-line-it-embracing-accessibility-in-a-digital-world-with-chris-knapp or stream it through your favorite podcast service like SoundCloud.
Bottom Line I.T. – Embracing Accessibility in a Digital World with Chris Knapp 1
Below, find a full written transcript of segment #1.
Mike Maddox: Hey, welcome everybody to Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network. I am Mike Maddox, your host, I'm so glad that you've chosen to spend part of your day with us. We talk on this show about creative ways that businesses are using technology, to do more business, be more efficient, provide benefits for society, we're not really interested in the technobabble or the bits and bytes, we're more interested in the application of technology in the business. I'm really excited about having my guest this week on the program, Chris Knapp. Chris is somebody I've known for a long time, you know, in the Lansing area, in many different roles and had admiration for his business acumen and the things that he's done in the government sector and other places. Chris, welcome to the program.
Chris Knapp: Hey, Mike, it's nice to be on the show. And thanks for having me.
MM: Well, I'm really excited, Chris, to talk to you about what you're doing, but, before we get into what you're doing with technology that is truly transformative, I want to first give you a chance, just introduce what your business Knapp Strategic Projects & Consulting does, and also Accessiversity, which is something that we'll get into in much more detail.
CK: Sure, well, Knapp Strategic is a full-service consulting business that I started up in 2018, after leaving the government sector, and focusing mostly on workforce development, and then the following year in 2019, is when I launched my Accessiversity accessibility and usability testing and learning service.
MM: Okay, and what's your focus with Knapp Strategic projects? Is it a specific niche of consulting, a specific client size? What are you mainly focused on there?
CK: Well, mostly, what I did is I basically took all the stuff that I've done over my 15+ year professional career, most of which, again, is in workforce development, and kind of put it up under this umbrella of business consulting. So, it's everything from organizational development, to project management to grant writing, those sorts of services, things that I have gained experience with over the years.
MM: Sure. So, I would imagine that that's applicable to various industries, it could be any industry, and it could also be really different, all kinds of different sizes of clients as well.
CK: Definitely. A lot of, you know, businesses are focused on talent recruitment, talent development, talent retention. I've helped a lot of clients, in terms of developing and implementing programs that can assist the organization with, you know, trying to access new sources of talent, really looking at better ways of addressing those workforce issues.
MM: Awesome. And when we get into Accessiversity – what a great name that is, by the way – you talked about when you launched that. Tell us why you launched that, and what it is.
CK: we originally decided to launch it, because it's something that, you know, we discovered there's a need for this type of service, which is really a value-added service that is focused on the accessibility experience of individuals with disabilities. You know, we live in a world that is more and more, you know, digital, and for individuals with disabilities, who oftentimes are using assistive technology to access that digital content, it's important that, you know, those websites and systems are accessible to them. So, the idea was that, you know, can we take individuals with disabilities and actually have them be the ones performing this testing, to help kind of fill in the blanks in terms of all of the technical requirements that need to happen to make that content accessible, but really with a focus on approaching it from a user experience perspective.
MM: So, and how is it done? You know, well, first of all, let me step back a minute because when we talk about accessibility to technology, that covers a range of disabilities, right? So, it might be sight impaired, it might be hearing impaired. You know, can you touch on that a little bit?
CK: Yeah, it does cover the entire spectrum. And, you know, web sites for instance, you know, a lot of that, because it is a visual medium related to, you know, looking at issues affecting, you know, or impacting individuals with blindness or visual impairment. But, you know, there's things like video and the need for captioning and transcription for individuals who are deaf and hard of hearing, to motion related things that actually can create problems for individuals who have different types of seizures and neurological disorders, to just general, like, learning disabilities, you know, like dyslexia, those types of disabilities. So, it really spans that entire spectrum. But obviously, my kind of slant on all this is primarily visual because of my disability and being someone that, you know, through most of my entire adult life, I’ve had to deal with my visual impairment.
MM: Yeah, visual impairment. Yeah. And, you know, I love the fact that it covers the gamut, and it, you know, speaking of which, I have a daughter who is dyslexic, and it's, you know, even with that disability, it creates unique challenges. I mean, in the typical way that media is produced, whether it be a website, or even textbooks, or whatever, is not set up for people with even that disability, let alone somebody with blindness, or somebody, you know, if it's an audio production, with a hearing impairment, and it's incredibly frustrating. And we'll get into that after the break. We're up on a commercial break. So, stay with us. We'll be right back. You're listening to Michigan Business Network. This is Bottom Line I.T.
Bottom Line I.T. - Embracing Accessibility in a Digital World with Chris Knapp 2
Below, find a full written transcript of segment #2.
Mike Maddox: Welcome back once again to Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network. I am Mike Maddox, your host, so glad you're with us this week, if you would like to send emails to the program, you can do that by sending them to BottomLine@JustASK.net. BottomLine@JustASK.net we would love your ideas. Or if you're a company that is using technology in a new and unique way, or leveraging it in a way to drive business. That's what we're all about. That's what we talk about on Bottom Line I.T. And we're always really thrilled to talk to people like Chris Knapp, who is my guest today, whose company is using technology to meet the needs of people with disabilities. And, Chris, I want to talk about that, because you talked about Accessiversity, and in their mission, to provide greater accessibility to content for people with disabilities. How is that different, because there are accessibility tools all over the place, right? If you're visually impaired, you can go and you can find tools that help with screen reading and things of that nature. And with hearing impairment, I'm sure there's a whole product set there. What's different about what you're doing at Accessiversity?
Chris Knapp: Sure, well when we advise a business client, you know, what our ultimate goal is, is to help them understand how an individual with a disability who again, is oftentimes using assistive technology to access their digital content, how those individuals are going to interact with your website or system, or whatever that, you know, digital footprint is, it could be a mobile application, anything like that. And so, we kind of say that our approach is that we can offer businesses a safe, proactive way for them to dip their toe in the water to assess what they’re doing when it comes to accessibility. Because what we're providing is that user experience through the form of live manual testing of a system in really just, you know, getting under the hood. And, you know, through a series of use cases in testing, really evaluating how well that product or service is working for folks with a wide range of disabilities.
MM: Yeah, real world testing by people who would be the end consumer, you know, can't be understated. And, yeah, I would imagine that that is what makes you different and unique and provides a powerful way for clients to evaluate their products. You know, it occurs to me that…what is it that drives your clients to you? Is it, well, I would imagine that some of it, you know, some customers, some businesses have just a culture that says, ‘Hey, we want to be accessible, we want people with disabilities to be able to consume what we're producing.’ It's got to be more than that, though, right? I mean, is it? Is it also regulation? Is it market share? What are the driving forces there from your customers perspective?
CK: Yeah, generally, accessibility, you know, organizations, you know, really want to focus on that, because of either the legal aspects of needing to make sure that their web site, or their, you know, software, or systems all adhere to government regulations, or to the, what are referred to as the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. And then, you know, there's the ethical thing, that this is the right thing to do. So, you know, we should, we should focus on this. We just try to focus on the business case for accessibility, because, you know, when you're making your websites and systems more accessible, you're actually making your products and services more usable for all of your consumers. And so, you know, I think that's a strong enough case, in and of itself, and regardless of how a customer comes to us, I want that to really be the focus of the value-added service that we're providing, you know, we're not just helping you figure out all the technical accessibility stuff. But we're really trying to help you improve the overall user experience.
MM: You know, and you said something to me, as we prepared for this show that resonates with me, you said, something along the lines of the organization's accessibility issues often don't have anything to do with IT, or the technology, but instead, they stem from a flawed business process, something near and dear to my heart, because I often say that to our clients at ASK, as a managed IT provider, and a cybersecurity provider. I often say, you know, it's, it's more about your business processes and your strategic initiatives than it is about the technology. If we can get that right, we can map the technology to it, but we’ve got to start on the business side. Can you expand on that a little bit?
CK: So, there's an example I use of a local manufacturer, who I actually had applied for a job with them at one point several years ago, when I was kind of in between opportunities, and I went through their whole online application process, which all was working fine from an accessibility standpoint, but I got all the way to the end. And they had a question that asked, ‘Do you have a valid Michigan driver's license? Yes or no?’ Well, I'm statutorily blind. I don't drive, but I have a valid state ID but that's not what the question asked. I said no, and it kind of automatically through my application into the rejection pile. And so I use that as an example. You know, here's an organization that had all these, you know, different technologies all you know, working as they were supposed to, but it was just how they, you know, included a question on this online, you know, application portal that was creating a problem related to accessibility.
MM: Yeah, process issue, so fascinating. We're going to get more into that, and we've got more with Chris after we come back. Don't go anywhere. You’re listening to Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network.
Bottom Line I.T. - Embracing Accessibility in a Digital World with Chris Knapp 3
Below, find a full written transcript of segment #3.
Mike Maddox: Welcome back again to Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network. This show brought to you each and every week from the capital city of Lansing in the great state of Michigan. So glad that you're spending part of your time with us. If you're a longtime listener, you know that what we're passionate about is businesses that are using technology to benefit society, to produce more profits for their business, to grow their business, to meet their business strategy. It's about the leveraging of technology as a business tool. And my guest today, Chris Knapp, from Knapp Consulting is, you know, it's fascinating, Chris, in the last segment, you told a story of applying for a position and one of the questions in the application, you were using the accessibility software, the screen reader, but one of the things that the online application asked you is do you have a valid driver's license? Well, being legally blind, you don't have a driver's license, so you had to answer No, and their process just took all those applications and discarded them. And, you know, that's a fascinating example, let's talk more about that, because the process behind everything is critically important, right? And how a company looks at their processes when it comes to accessibility and people with disabilities.
Chris Knapp: Yeah, definitely. And another good example, is training, in terms of if I work with a client, and we're able to do an assessment, and we're able to get, you know, to a point where their website or system, you know, is completely accessible, checks off all the boxes, you know, that's just a kind of point in time type of measure because websites are dynamic, you know, as you add content and make changes, there's always an opportunity to introduce other problems, introduce other, you know, issues to the site. So, training of individuals who, you know, have any sort of role with helping to create content or maintain the site is critical for, you know, maintaining an ongoing accessibility strategy. So, you know, it's not technical in the sense of, you know, the bits and bytes, like you said, but definitely, you need to have that integrated into a broader strategy that's thinking big picture about all this stuff.
MM: Well, that's intuitive to me, because in my business of cybersecurity, and managed IT, and good managed IT, the same thing applies, you know, we'll work with a customer on developing a framework around cybersecurity, so that their security posture is efficient, and proactive, and provides the level of protection that they're comfortable with. But that's still a point in time, and unless it becomes part of their culture, and part of their training processes, and part of their internal processes. It will get outdated very quickly. So again, it's back to the business process. And the business strategy comes first. The technology's always second, right?
CK: Yeah, definitely. I mean, its training, its policies, it's all that stuff that you need to have kind of built around whatever technology that you're, you're looking to leverage.
MM: Yeah, absolutely. Now, in the world, changing gears a little bit, talking about the technology, you know, knowing that the most important thing is the business process, and the business culture, and training, and all the things that go into that. But talking about the technology…when you get into it, let's talk about that a little bit. Because in the world of accessibility, certain products come to mind. Like for screen readers, for example, right? So, there are some big ones in the industry, like, what JAWS? Or you know, what are some others that are available today?
CK: Yeah, so JAWS is probably the industry leader. It's been around for, you know, several decades. It's the one that I use, that I, you know, have used all the way going back to my days at MSU and throughout my professional career. But there are other ones, there's an open-source screen reader called NVDA, which stands for Non-Visual Desktop Access. There's WindowEyes, which is, you know, built to work on the, basically the Windows operating system. And Apple, you know, they've made accessibility, well, more accessible. They've included things like their Voiceover screen reader, as well as other assistive technologies, and they baked that right into their OS. So, it's as simple as going in and just switching that on right in the settings.
MM: Yeah, that's a great example with Apple. And that goes back, you know, and I guess getting back to the previous topic, I mean, that's part of their company culture, right? I mean, I have to imagine that it's more than just market share, because they don't, they don't really even market that, so to speak. Like, I've not seen that as a marketing differentiator that’s promoted by Apple, but it's baked into their product set.
CK: They haven't, but it's brilliant, and I think that it's going to end up just paying huge dividends over the long haul. Because, I mean, think about it, if you think about generation after generation, like each of the, you know, next generations are utilizing technology exponentially more than the prior generation. So, you know, we use technology way more than our parents’ generation. They used it, you know, sparingly. Our kids coming after us, I mean, we're all going to age, we're all going to end up having things like macular degeneration and those types of disabilities and things, so it makes sense to bake that right into your product.
MM: Absolutely. And we'll talk more about that after the break. We've got much more to talk about with Chris Knapp, thank you for being a part of the program today and thanks for listening. We are coming back on Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network.
Bottom Line I.T. - Embracing Accessibility in a Digital World with Chris Knapp 4
Below, find a full written transcript of segment #4.
Mike Maddox: welcome back once again to Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network. Mike Maddox, your host. You can send emails to this program at BottomLine@JustASK.net. This program is brought to you each and every week by ASK, as I say the greatest it and cybersecurity company in the galaxy. And that's been proven, at least has been repeated often by me, so it must be true. And I'm really happy to have on the program this week, a good friend, somebody I've known for quite a number of years now, Chris Knapp. Chris runs a fantastic consulting business based out of the Lansing area, involved with a branch of his business called Accessiversity, which is about providing solutions for companies to make their technology accessible to those with disabilities. Chris, how in Accessiversity, and in Knapp Consulting, are you using technology today? So, can you give us maybe a broad picture of how it's being used by your staff there at Knapp Consulting?
Chris Knapp: Sure. Well, of course, because of the accessibility and usability testing that we do, we're using hardware and software. We use a number of different screen readers that are out there, JAWS, NVDA, Voiceover. We’re using the internet to connect with our clients, their websites, to do the assessments online. And of course, things like, you know, phones and, you know…
MM: The whole gamut, you know, yeah. You know, what strikes me, as you're talking about this, is that I think people, people don't realize, if you're not, if you don't have a disability, or you don't have, maybe staff with disabilities, or family members, that the dependence on technology is no different for somebody with a site disability, or hearing disability, or a learning disability, then it is for anybody else. We all depend on it. Correct?
CK: Yeah, and Covid has been, you know, a good reminder of that, with the shift to remote working, and remote learning, you know, that's really exposing the need for accessibility on, kind of, all these different frontiers. I did a piece on my blog recently that was focused on all these different web conferencing solutions out there, and, you know, Zoom, we've actually started to leverage some of the features in Zoom to do some different things for Accessiversity, in terms of providing interactive testing sessions, where we can actually use the screen share function, and then pipe in the audio, so that a customer can be looking through their computer screen and seeing, you know, our cursor navigating around on their website and hearing the screen reader software announcing, you know, everything, and how it's interacting with that site. So, it's actually pretty neat to see all the innovation and stuff that's coming out of what I think we all can agree was a pretty horrible situation with this health crisis.
MM: Absolutely. So just so I understand this…so this would be a client, who you're working with, say on their website, to make sure that it is accessible to somebody who has a sight impairment, using a screen reader, and you're using Zoom, for example, doing a screen share, using the voice technology, the screen reader technology, showing them as you navigate, as you control their screen, what a person with a sight impairment would hear, did I get that correct?
CK: Yeah, that's exactly how we're using that. And so, you know, it can be to help troubleshoot an issue. Like, if I'm working with a developer or someone that has brought us in to assist on a project, you know, I might go to a problematic web page, or some element within a web page. And, you know, try to recreate the problem so that they can see how the cursor is interacting with an element on a website, while hearing the assistive technology. Or it can be just like what we're describing, just showing a website customer, you know, here's how the screen reader saw, or is, you know, interacting with the site. And because I think, you know, people just tend to think, well, it just has to look pretty, it has to be aesthetically pleasing. But at the end of the day, you want that information to all come through, and make sure that folks, you know, with all sorts of different disabilities, are able to access that same content.
MM: Yeah, absolutely. That makes perfect sense. And I would imagine that, I mean, the same thing applies to mobile. I mean, what is it 75% of people in general in society, access the web via smartphone. I mean, they're not using a computer, and I think we forget that, unless you have accessibility tools that are applicable to mobile, people are tied to a computer, and that's just not feasible. So, is that technology, has it proliferated to the mobile device as well?
CK: For sure. Personally, I use an iPhone SE that I recently updated to last year. And again, Apple has a number of different accessibility features baked right into their OS, that you can just go in under your general settings, there's an accessibility setting, you can go in and turn on any number of things, including Voiceover. And not just that, but like mobile apps, there's a ton of apps out there that are focused on providing, you know, new and different functionality to these populations. You know, I use an app called Envision that allows me to scan in, you know, different documents, do text to speech, or even identify objects, and actually tell me that my phone is actually taking a picture of, you know, a man standing next to a lamp, that type of thing. It's crazy the amount of A.I. and things that are helping these mobile apps to be, you know, finding new purposes for using them for this population
MM: That’s fantastic. And we're coming back after this, don't go anywhere. This is great information from Chris Knapp, and a fascinating story of the work they're doing at Knapp Consulting and also with Accessiversity. Don't go anywhere, this is Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network.
Bottom Line I.T. - Embracing Accessibility in a Digital World with Chris Knapp 5
Below, find a full written transcript of segment #5.
Mike Maddox: welcome back again to Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network. Mike Maddox with you today, of course, hosting this program for, I think, 38 years now. Just kidding, it's not been that long, but it sometimes seems like it. And we're so glad that you're with us. Chris Knapp is my guest. He's the president of Knapp Consulting, Knapp Strategic, and also Accessiversity, part of his company, and we're talking about accessibility tools for people with disabilities. And Chris is, as you've explained, I mean, this is near and dear to your heart being somebody with blindness, and depending on technology for your business and personal life like all of us do. And the advancements that are being made, and accessibility in general. And you know, as I think about this, I think about a couple of hurdles to advancement that have to come into play. The first one I guess, I asked you about is cost, you know, so for businesses on the web, or in other places that are desiring to be accessible, how do you weigh the cost factor? How do you consult with clients on that? And can you touch on that a little bit?
Chris Knapp: Sure, yeah, there's a number of different options out there in terms of, you know, combining some of the live manual testing that we can provide, and we do through our assessment of a web site or software product, or assess with, you know, some of the different automated testing tools that are out there, or automated testing services. And you know, it's all, you know, it’s something that you can kind of chunk this up, you don't have to swallow the whole elephant in one bite, you can just get started putting together an accessibility strategy, and start to, you know, deal with some of the most critical areas that need to be addressed. And then, you know, kind of switch to more of a maintenance strategy. So, we provide everything from, you know, full comprehensive assessments, to what I call scenario-based simulations, where you could just give us a list of use cases and say, we want to know how a customer is going to interact with this, that, or, you know, whatever part of our system, and we can go in and, you know, try to simulate that and provide our feedback through, kind of, resource prioritization, or just focusing again, on those most critical aspects of the system or site.
MM: And what role does regulatory compliance, or the Americans with Disabilities Act, where does it, Who does it pertain to? Like, you know, does it, for example, if I'm going to sell a product on the web, and I have a, you know, widget, and I'm going to build a website to sell that widget, do I have to build my website to be accessible according to the ADA? Or is that, has that been defined legally?
CK: Yes, I mean, really, all of those regulations, whether the ADA, the Federal Section 508 standards, or just more generally, the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, which, you know, provides that set of standards for how digital content should be made accessible to consumers or users of web sites. I mean, the sector's that have been paying attention to this stuff, historically, have been, you know, the government sector, education, to a lesser extent, financial services and banking, those types of sectors that are highly regulated, or receive a lot of public funding. The private sector has been a little slower to embrace all of the accessibility stuff, which I don't think is because businesses don't want to do it, or that they don't think it's the right thing to do. I think a lot of it is, there is this, you know, a little bit of hesitation about: I don't know what all is involved, I don't know what I'm getting myself into if I open this can of worms, you know, am I opening myself up to risk, or exposure? And that's, you know, why our approach has really been, you know, let's start with just taking a safe kind of look at what's going on, all in a confidential way, and then put a plan together for how we’re going to address some of these things. So, it doesn't have to be scary. It doesn't have to be expensive. The most important thing is just to start doing something.
MM: Yeah, for sure. And we're out of time in this segment. But when we come back, I want to talk about what the bigger reason is, which is, I think it's not only, there might not only be a regulatory reason for you to do it, or a government mandate, but the fact that there's market share. And it's about, you know, doing the right thing is always consistent with good business. One of the things I've always said, you know, good ethics and good business are the same thing. And I will talk about that when we come back, so don't go anywhere. We're going to have more with Chris Knapp right after the break. Stay with us. This is Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network.
Bottom Line I.T. - Embracing Accessibility in a Digital World with Chris Knapp 6
Below, find a full written transcript of segment #6.
Mike Maddox: welcome back once again to Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network, Mike Maddox, your host. This show is brought to you by ASK each and every week. We're so glad that you're with us, whether that be in the capital city of Lansing, Michigan, where we're at, or if it's anywhere around the country, or around the world, we talk about technology and how it can be used to do more business, and how it is a critical business driver. And we talk about ways that companies are doing that. And with Chris Knapp, who is my guest, this week, we're exploring a fascinating topic, which is accessibility tools, and accessibility processes for businesses to make their content available to those with disabilities. And that's what Chris' business does. Accessiversity Labs is unique, Chris, as you've explained in that you work with clients, and you have folks with disabilities doing the testing on their products, to give them feedback on how accessible it really is in the real world, which is much different than just maybe conference room testing. So that's fascinating. And we talked in the last segment about why businesses make their website, for example, accessible, is it, you know, some of its government regulation, some of it is, you know, because it's a good thing to do. But there's a bigger factor here, which keeps coming to my mind, and I'd love to have you touch on it and talk about it, which is there's a market share out there, correct?
Chris Knapp: For sure. I mean, you know, I don't have the specific figures in front of me, but, you know, there's millions and millions of Americans who have some sort of disability. And, you know, there's studies that show, if an individual with a disability goes to a web site that's not accessible, you know, they'll leave the web site, and they'll never go back. So, I mean, you can quantify that, you can point to that, you know, this percentage of these, you know, millions and millions of people with disabilities, you know, if your web site’s not accessible, you’re potentially losing, you know, a significant chunk of market share. And I mean, we're in a world that's run, you know, more and more on all these virtual connections, and you know, selling goods and services through the internet, so it's a big deal, it's something that you really need to be thinking about and paying attention to.
MM: You know, it's, it's amazing to me, I mean, it’s one of those things. It's like if I said to a jewelry store owner, that if you have a door that opens on the left-hand side, studies show that, you know, 20% of your potential client base, will never come back to your store again, they would change the door opening to the other side. You know? And the same thing can be quantified in this case. And it's real, and it's substantial, and as you said, millions of people. Which is another topic that you and I were kind of talking about off the air, which is that good ethics, I mean, you could look at this and say, Well, I want to provide accessibility, because I want to be an ethical company, I want to do the right thing. I want to make sure that people with disabilities have access, and aren't encumbered. Good ethics and good business are always the same thing. If you do that, out of good ethics is going to lead to more market share, it's going to lead to more potential consumers, and you'll be rewarded for it. And that's what I think you're all about, Accessiversity Labs and Knapp Strategic.
CK: For sure, yeah, I think, you know, when it comes to accessibility, there's, you know, all these, you know, different sticks and carrots, and we like to focus on more of the carrot ones, those things like, you know, being a socially responsible company is going to equate to you getting more business, and you know, getting more customers, and so, I’d much prefer to talk about how that makes a strong business case, or is just good business for organizations to, you know, include accessibility as part of their overall strategy.
MM: That's fantastic, and kudos for the fantastic work. What a great company, What a great business model, a great leader. Hey, I appreciate you being on the program. If I'm listening out there, if listeners out there want to get ahold of you, what's the best way to reach you and to get more information about what you do?
CK: Sure, my phone number is: 517-881-4256. You can email me, chris@knappstrategic.com and you can always go out and get more information about our company on our website, which is knappstrategic.com or our Facebook page which is @accessiversitylabs.
MM: So, that's knappstrategic.com, that's k-n-a-p-p-strategic.com, and Facebook is @accessiversitylabs, which is a-c-c-e-s-s-i-v-e-r-s-i-t-y-l-a-b-s. And Chris, you're on LinkedIn. He is Chris Knapp, Chris spelled with a “C,” Knapp is k-n-a-p-p. You can find me on LinkedIn as well. And by the way, fantastic content on LinkedIn. I follow Chris – I have for quite some time on LinkedIn. Great articles, great blog posts; great posts that you put out there. So, appreciate you very much being on the program and the great work you're doing.
CK: Hey, it's always a pleasure Mike, and it was great having the chance to talk with you today.
MM: Yeah, great catching up. Thanks, my friend. Thank you all for listening. This has been Bottom Line I.T. on the Michigan Business Network.