Can Websites Turn Away Good Talent? - Part 2

Ep. 84: Can Websites Turn Away Good Talent? - Part 2

Podcast Transcription

Voiceover: Your connected to Business Rap. Find us online at: businessrap.biz, on Twitter using handle AskBizRap, and on Facebook, just search Business Rap. And now, Work Matters with Julie Mann…

 Julie Mann: Hello everyone and welcome to the show that ponders, “does work matter? And if it does, why?” On the show we like to think about making that work matter, and a lot of times, making that work matter, it’s kind of, you know, it’s in the details and a lot of times the details is in the how, and how do we make different things within the work place matter. And today we’re going to talk about, is your web site screening out good talent. And we hope  it’s always bringing in all of the talent that’s available out there, but there’s times when you really need to take, kind of another look at what your web site’s doing, and how your attracting talent into that web site to be sure that your web site is accessible to all looking for work. And so, joining us in the studio today is Chris Knapp. And Chris is the CEO and Managing Member of Knapp Strategic Projects & Consulting, and we’re going to talk today about Accessiversity Labs which is really super fascinating in this particular space. And so, Chris, thank you for joining us in the studio.

Chris Knapp: Yeah, thanks again Julie, I appreciate being here.

JM: Oh, it’s a blast! I always love it, I tell you, Chris is one of those people that you sit down and all of a sudden it’s an hour later and it was the most fascinating conversation you ever had, so I’m really excited that you’re here with us today. So, let’s talk about, you know, when we think about accessibility considerations, and kind of that field of HR and the hiring process, tell us a little bit, share your thoughts with us on that particular topic.

CK: Yeah, so this is one of those things, accessibility, you know, is something that is becoming more and more important to all organizations. I think there’s a business case to be had that you want to make sure your web sites and your systems and information are accessible to, you know, all of your customers. But I think, when it comes to HR professionals, it’s even more important in terms of really thinking about, not only just the legal aspects of it from a, you know, ADA or EEO type of thing, but just with a tight labor market, you know, are we unintentionally screening out otherwise qualified applicants…

JM: Right.

CK: …and so, a lot of that relates to, like you said, a web site, a lot of organizations use like online application portals, things of that nature, just even how you promote your job opportunities, you know, if, you know, you’re using YouTube videos or different things like that to share information about your organization or you’re available job opportunities, are those all in an accessible format? And again, its, you know, I look at it from a very practical standpoint of it’s a tight labor market, employers are struggling to find talent, and there’s this huge population that is out there that, you know, have to approach that a little differently than everybody else. And so, that’s where, you know, accessibility really comes into play, and how they’re interacting with those web sites, with those job boards, you know, with those online application portals. 

JM: Oh, absolutely, and I think, I mean it would be a curious statistic to look up, you know, what percentage of organizations require an application to come in through an online portal? And I would tend to say, its ninety-eight percent if it’s not a hundred, I mean, I don’t know if many organizations, I mean your smaller companies that use like a paper application process, but if you’re going in through a medium to larger organization than, most people have to interact with some type of an online space. So, as you were saying, you could be very unintentionally screening people out because its not in an accessible format.

CK: Yeah, and you know I think there are a lot of organizations out there that are doing a really good job, we should probably start there…

JM: Right.

CK: …and say there are obviously a lot of organizations that do a good job at this, and then there are some that, you know, could use some improvement. Or, there’s probably even more that know that they could use some improvement…

JM: Right.

CK: …they just don’t know even where to start…

JM: Right.

CK: …and so that’s kind of, what we’re kind of focusing in on those, to say, you know, there’s a way to approach this that, you know, we can do it in a safe, kind of proactive way to kind of really understand, you know, what’s going on with your current systems, and then, what sorts of things you could do differently to make sure that they’re more accessible moving forward.

JM: There’s a couple of neat examples that we’ve talked about, so let’s kind of share those with the listeners. So, when we think about creating or saving job postings or application materials as a scanned document, like talk about, you know, why does that create a challenge?

CK: Yeah, so when you’re saving a document as a scanned image, for folks like myself who use screen reader software, if its not properly coded with alt text, or not just saved off of the source file versus just saving it as a scanned image, what’s going to happen is the screen reader is going to, you know, just see that as an image, so its going to make it impossible, or you know, at the very least, difficult for the individual to access that information, so, you know, its thinking about those types of considerations. Are you saving the source file, and is it properly tagged in terms of having headings and you know, even using certain types of fonts for folks with certain, you know, visual impairments, it makes a difference whether you’re using, you know, one font versus another. So, its those types of things that may just be easier to say, “well, we’ll just scan this in and save it so that we know that it can’t be altered or messed around with” But you really need to think, you know, twice before, you know, posting those types of documents, whether it’s, you know, a job posting, or application, so on and so forth, because its going to create some issues for folks with certain types of disabilities.

JM: Well even, you know, the number of steps, right? I read an article recently, I might get this, I’ll get it roughly right Chris, but it was like if it requires more than, was it seven steps? Seven clicks, that you will lose the candidate because they’re just not going to continue. And like, They’re going to get bored and go to something else that’s easier than like a seven click. But even minimizing that number of steps that it takes for applicants to submit that application material, even that in itself, can create another, you know, undue stressor on that application process.

CK: Yeah, I think in some cases, you know, less is more. And when you’re thinking about, you know, for instance, you know, someone who has dexterity issues, and it’s a lot of , you know, downloading, and you know, saving, and then uploading, and its just all of these steps that are part of that process to put together an application packet…

JM: Right.

CK: …is that really necessary, or could it be simplified, and you know, like you said, to not create undue stress to an already stressful situation…

JM: Exactly, process, yeah, yeah. 

CK: …process, yeah, so yeah, just think about that. You know, obviously, there’s certain information that you’re going to need, that you’re going to require to be able to make that assessment of an applicant… 

JM: Right. 

CK: …but are you making the process overly complicated?

JM: Well, I really like that example. You have an example of one time you tried to apply for a job with a large manufacturer. So, can you kind of share that example about how you kind of got through that online application process and what not?

CK: Yeah, and interesting enough… 

JM: Because it’s a great example of less is more, you know?

CK: Yeah, yeah, and interesting enough, I mean, from a technical standpoint there was really nothing that would have been flagged as being something that wasn’t accessible, but it was actually how the technology was interacting with their underlining business process which kind of became a problem. Because I had applied for a position, I knew someone on the inside, they said, Hey, you know, go ahead and apply for this, let me know once you get through our online application process, and then, you know, I’ll let the hiring manager know that you’re in the cue”, so on and so forth…

JM: Right.

CK: …and then I got all the way to the end, and there was a question that said, “do you have a valid Michigan driver’s license?” which, I’m statutorily blind, I don’t drive…

JM: Right.

CK: …and so, I have a valid Michigan state ID, but not a driver’s license, but it was a yes or no question…

JM: Right.

CK: …and it was one or the other, so I said ‘no’ and automatically got kind of thrown into the rejection pile and booted out of the system…

JM: Right.

CK: …and it just, you know, it was one of those things that maybe the better thing to do would be to say, you know, “do you have a valid Michigan Driver’s license OR Michigan state ID?” or, you know, just, “do you have reliable, you know, transportation?”

JM: Right, Right.

CK: So, it’s like, what are we asking the question for? Or what is the answer that we’re really needing to know? But by having it black and white, yes/no, and I mean, really not thinking through all of the different, you know, folks that are out there that, like myself, you don’t have that Michigan driver’s license…

JM: Right, right.

CK: …still, I have access to reliable transportation, I use a van service to get back and forth to meetings, and to work, and so on and so forth…

JM: Right.

CK: …so yeah, that was just an example of just kind of like really, you know, thinking beyond even the technology to what, you know, are your underlining business processes, are those aligned with what you’re trying to do, in terms of accessibility?

JM: Right, well, and you know, you go back to how tough it is from a talent perspective, you can ask, just asking, especially when it comes to technology, asking a question the wrong way, you know, with your example, all of a sudden puts this group over into the, you know, reject pile, you know, or you know we call it the “nix” pile, right? So, it’s kind of got in there just because they asked the question wrong, whereas, if they hadn’t asked that particular question wrong, you know, they would all of a sudden have another person in their applicant pool. So, you really have to think through, I really, kind of like how you phrased that Chris, because it’s like that business process, right? You know, what are you asking and why are you asking? And more importantly, who could you be screening out by asking the wrong thing? Because one thing you surely don’t want to do, I mean, if I had Chris Knapp applying for a job at my company, I would want Chris Knapp to make it through, no matter what, to like all the way through, to get the application through so that we could talk to him. But its that technology that sometimes gets in the way, because of the way that business process works, or you’re asking too much on the upfront, and then you’re screening people out, which was kind of what we were talking about from a web site standpoint of view, how do you be sure you’re not screening good talent by either your technology, or your business process? Those are two really important things, and I think that’s where its kind of neat, again, if you think about the Accessibility Labs is, how would, let’s use an example of a company that is working on their new career web site…

CK: Sure.

JM: …a company is working on their new career web site and they want to think through these things, is that where they can work with you to kind of help think through those things, and what would that look like as an example?

CK: Sure, yeah, and we have a number of different options for how we can engage with an organization in that process. We can do kind of a high level assessment where we would basically go in and we would do a combination of things, we would use one of these automated testing tools to kind of do areal thorough assessment of each page of that site, and looking at how its scoring in terms of compliance with the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines and the Section 508 standards, and then backing that up with a lot of manual, live testing, and what we typically do is, we’ll look at it both, using the JAWS screen reader, which is probably one of the more, well it is the industry, kind of, predominate industry screen reader, as well as looking at it with like an iPhone or iPad which is going to be a different operating system, but also looking at it through, you know, the use of a mobile device. So we can do that type of thing, but we can also do what we call scenario based simulations, where, you know, there might just be an aspect of your site, or it might be the online application portal that you just want to see, like, can you successfully navigate through this, and do XYZ task. And you could have us, we could be sitting right next to you, you know, showing you the steps we would be going through because there’s different key strokes, and short cuts, and different things, cursors, everything that you’re having to use that a sighted user isn’t necessarily going to really understand, kind of, the difference, and there’s only so much you can simulate by, you know, looking at, using a screen reader, but then, you know, manually going through and doing that, you know, if you are a sighted developer for instance, it’s the authenticity, the thing that you can’t replicate until you’re actually sitting there…

JM: Trying to do it, right.

CK: …trying 100%, you know,  to just use the tools to go through and complete those tasks.

JM: Yeah, yeah, no I just think that’s just so important, and again, you just have to think through those things to be sure that you’re attracting all the talent that you potentially can. Chris, if people want to get in touch with you how do they do that?

CK: Sure, they can call me at 517-881-4256. Or they can email me at chris@knappstrategic.com, and that’s c-h-r-i-s.

JM: Terrific, Chris, thank you so much for joining us today, just a phenomenal discussion and I really appreciate your time. And for all those listening, let’s transform today, let’s have an impact on tomorrow, and let’s make work matter.